Okay, we've all got our opinions of Torre. We've said so in other threads about particular topics. Let's get it all out in the open here.
IMO, you have to give him his props. He's won and has a track record. So I don't think it would ever be fair to fire him in midseason unless he did something horrifically wrong.
There are some things that he does that I like. He is loyal to his veterans and he doesn't let one mistake automatically put a player in his doghouse.
What I don't understand are some things that seem obvious to me... Matsui gets hot when he gets some kind of rest, even if it's just as a DH. He gets run down too much when he plays LF every day. You'll see him go into these frequent week-long slumps. Can't Joe give Hideki a blow every now and then. I know he can't sit out completely because of his streak; but if he's 0 for 12 and swinging badly, then you can't leave him out there.
Sometimes I think Torre believes his starting pitchers are pitching softball games and shouldn't go past the 6th or 7th inning. Let's face it, with Sturtze and Gordon overworked, the starters have to try to hand off directly to Rivera -- for a few weeks in a row at least. What good is Mussina, Leiter, Johnson, etc., when they can't get past the 6th? The weak bullpen is going to give back at least 2 or 3 runs a game if it has to go 3 or 4 innings. If Moose has to leave after throwing 100 pitches, then he's never going to win 20 games as a big league starter.
Even rookies need a rest. Does Cano's average have to drop to .240 before he gets a couple of days off? The more he slumps, the more difficult it's going to be for him to come out of it. Come on, Joe, remember Womack can still play 2B once in a while.
Just wanted to get these things off my chest. Thanks for bearing with me, folks.
IMO, you have to give him his props. He's won and has a track record. So I don't think it would ever be fair to fire him in midseason unless he did something horrifically wrong.
There are some things that he does that I like. He is loyal to his veterans and he doesn't let one mistake automatically put a player in his doghouse.
What I don't understand are some things that seem obvious to me... Matsui gets hot when he gets some kind of rest, even if it's just as a DH. He gets run down too much when he plays LF every day. You'll see him go into these frequent week-long slumps. Can't Joe give Hideki a blow every now and then. I know he can't sit out completely because of his streak; but if he's 0 for 12 and swinging badly, then you can't leave him out there.
Sometimes I think Torre believes his starting pitchers are pitching softball games and shouldn't go past the 6th or 7th inning. Let's face it, with Sturtze and Gordon overworked, the starters have to try to hand off directly to Rivera -- for a few weeks in a row at least. What good is Mussina, Leiter, Johnson, etc., when they can't get past the 6th? The weak bullpen is going to give back at least 2 or 3 runs a game if it has to go 3 or 4 innings. If Moose has to leave after throwing 100 pitches, then he's never going to win 20 games as a big league starter.
Even rookies need a rest. Does Cano's average have to drop to .240 before he gets a couple of days off? The more he slumps, the more difficult it's going to be for him to come out of it. Come on, Joe, remember Womack can still play 2B once in a while.
Just wanted to get these things off my chest. Thanks for bearing with me, folks.
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Wed, August 10, 2005 - 5:44 AMYou make some good points, Allan. For the last few years the Yanks seem to try to purposely ruin their own pitching staff. There's always one or two long stretches in the season when they lose most of their starters and their bull pen is burnt out. When this happens with tried and proven veterans when it never happened to them before in their careers, you gotta think it has more to do with the way the manager uses them.
Please go back to starters "trying" to pitch 9 inns. -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Wed, August 10, 2005 - 5:37 PMIMHO, Joe Torre never was and never will be a competent manager. All a manager has to do is make out the line-up card and handle the pitchers, and Torre can't do either properly. He's been ruining the pitching staff for years, and it finally stated to show last season. In addition, Stottlemyer has been "mailing it in" since his cancer treatment. Now, Pavano is out for the season. Besides Moose, only Small and Chacon are reliable. Johnson is damaged goods. Sturtze and Gordon need a rest, and so will Rivera next month.
Bernie Williams is no longer an every day player, and neither is Tino.
Torre loves to "play favorites", and only use the guys he knows, and misuses the rest of the players. Poor Bubba Crosby rarely gets a chance, and when he does get to bat, he tries so hard to prove himself, that he swings at anything.
BTW, why do so many pitchers and players get better after they leave the Yankees??? -
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Unsu...
Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Thu, August 11, 2005 - 10:29 AMPitchers and players seem to get better after they leave the Yankees franchise because of fans like US. WE as the Yankees fan expect them to always win! Yankees fans are the most loyal, but they are also quick to shun a player if he is not playing according to the pinstripe pride. Not to mention the Yankees owner himself puts so much pressure on them as a whole. Who can play normal under those conditions?
Just my 2 cents! -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Thu, August 11, 2005 - 5:10 PMI really don't think you can blame Torre for this decade. After 2001, (IMHO) the Yankees started moving into the strategy I not-so-fondly remember as "the 1980s." Basically, they buy up all the "best" players, forget that pitiching and team chemistry is what's really important, and put a bloated payroll on the field so that they'll win 80-100 games but not have that extra something that takes them all the way.
When you think of the great teams of the 1990s, you think of players that were brought up through our (REALLY good) farm system, sprinkled with key free agents (Sott and Paul, for example). Not players that we've acquired by gutting our farm system who don't have the fire to win it all. Hell, even Jeter is starting to look tired!
Can you blame Torre for that?? I think it has to fall in Steinbrenner's lap. I don't think it's a coincidence that he was suspended as some of the best players of the 1990s-early 200s (Jeter, Williams, Pettite, Rivera) were moving up... -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Thu, August 11, 2005 - 10:00 PMWhen CEO George was suspended, Gene Michael ran the show, and put those winning teams together. Then George came back, and they decided to hire Torre, knowing he was not a smart manager, but giving him Zimmer for strategy decisions. Then George went back to trading his best minor leaguers for "names", many of whom were past their prime. Gene Michael was shoved out of the picture, and George ran the show. Torre/Zimmer won four championships, but then again, they had super teams. Then, as they started to lose nucleus players, they started losing the World Series/Playoffs, and naturally, George continued to make the same mistakes in player acquisitions. In the meanwhile, Torre continued to "manage" as if he had super players in their prime, but worst of all, he came up with this 100 pitch count philosophy, which managed to cause an overuse of the bullpen. In addition, Torre only likes to use players that he "trusts", and does not give others a proper shot. He has a complete lack of trust in rookies, and doesn't like to use them, unless he is ordered to do so. It is really pathetic to see poor Bernie Williams playing center field, as he has lost a couple of steps and has no more arm. In addition, he is no longer a 300 hitter, yet Torre uses him as if it was a couple of years ago. Bubba Crosby has never been given a real chance to prove himself. When he does get a rare start, he swings at anything close to the strike zone, trying to prove himself. (Anyone who has played ball, knows what I'm talking about) This is no way to use a young player, who just happens to be the best fielding outfielder on the roster.
Rather to continue this rant, all that I will repeat, is that the real Joe Torre is that incompetent, who was fired by Atlanta, St. Louis and the Mets, and the only reason that he won with the Yankees was that he was handed a championship team on a golden platter, with an old time baseball manager at his side.
BTW, if you notice, when they had those "panic" meetings in Tampa several weeks ago, Gene Michael was brought back into the decision making, and that is why they didn't make any more idiotic trades. -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Fri, August 12, 2005 - 6:37 PMI just can't be sure how I feel about Torre's mgr. abilities. Years ago, I felt like I could guess along with him and I usually knew and understood the moves he would make. Now I am often flabbergasted and find myself shouting at the tv when he yanks Mussina or some other starter after the 5th or in the middle of the 6th inning. No wonder Yankee pitchers hurt themselves so often. They never learn to stretch their arms in the Yankees rotation. You'd think that Stottlemyre would remember that pitchers were more durable in the old days of 4 man rotations and routine 300+ inning seasons. But maybe he's more sensitive these days because he remembers his own career-ending rotator cuff injury.
No one on the Yankees starting staff knows how to battle for a win. It's like they all have the "five and fly" mentality that infects non-championship teams.
Injured pitchers often either end their careers when Torre abuses them or they mysteriously get healthy when properly used by other managers when they leave the Yankees.
The bullpen? Sorry, Torre's either phoning it in or he thinks he's managing a Stratomatic team where you can use the same guy 162 games without his card/arm getting tired.
As for position players, I am stumped as to why Bubba Crosby is allowed to stagnate on the bench. It's not as though the Yanks have 3 gold glove outfielders. Matsui needs rest. Bernie always needs a defensive replacement. Sheffield could use a night off every once in a while. Womack is still a secondbaseman even though he does give you 100% when moved to an outfield position. But Bubba is a talented outfielder with speed whose butt is stapled to Torre's bench. I often wonder if Torre just refuses to use young players when he can use a tired veteran instead but, then again, he's burning out Cano everynight.
And, while I'm on the subject, can't someone tell Cano to take a pitch every now and then? He's constantly making outs on the first pitch. Every pitcher in the league knows he'll swing at the first pitch (even after 2 guys walk ahead of him!) and he will still hack at anything anywhere as soon as he walks up to the plate. He's killing rallies with embarrassing swings immediately after Jeter worked a pitcher into a deep count.
And why not play Flaherty an extra game every couple of weeks. It's not like Jorge is having one of his better seasons so maybe Flaherty can get something going or, at best, maybe Posada can get refreshed.
There may be something to the concept of those "super" teams that were handed to Torre at the start of his Yankees career. Even if that were the case, you'd like to think that Torre would have learned something about managing and about chemistry just by sitting and watching those Yankees teams.
And now Torre's saying that he's taking Aaron Small out of the rotation to make room for Jaret Wright. That makes perfect sense in this new world order...take one of your most effective and durable starters out of the rotation and stick him into the bullpen where Torre can wear him out in about 2 weeks.
For now, I guess I'll just go back to the tv now and scream at the set for the next 3 innings while Torre tries to put together a bullpen to clean up after another Al Leiter 500-pitch 5-inning start. -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Fri, August 12, 2005 - 9:11 PMWell written and well thought out.
In answer to your question, I believe that it is simply the fact that Torre is dumb and doesn't know any better... -
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Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Sat, August 13, 2005 - 11:18 AMI wouldn't call him "dumb" just yet. He hasn't done anything clearly foolish that we can jump on or point our fingers at. There is a lot that we all seem to disagree with but we can't say for sure that we are right and his is wrong. But I do sense that Torre is getting too complacent and just making decisions based upon his own strict mindset. He doesn't seem to sense what he is doing big-picture-wise. He plays every game like it was the last game of the World Series and continues to blow out the entire team. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Joe Torre: Hash it out...
Sat, August 13, 2005 - 11:37 AMI agree with everything that you stated, but I once met Torre, and take my word, he's dumb... -
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Time for Joe to go
Tue, October 11, 2005 - 4:58 AMLast night's game was typical. Bernie Williams (my fav) should not have played, Tino should have been at first, and Giambi doing what he shoudl be - a DH. Bubba in the outfield hurt so bad, why couldn't Matsui been there? Time for Joe to go -
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Re: Time for Joe to go
Tue, October 11, 2005 - 11:10 AMHigh fly to right center is the center fielder's ball. Sheffield should know better.
Torre really screwed up in the second inning. Never signal a hit and run, when the pitcher is in trouble, like Santana was. Sorry, but Torre does not understand situation managing!!!
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